{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/kd1qf8m754/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Fredrick \"Fred\" Williams Interview"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/571/original/full-color_2x.png?1735841768","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["The African American Network TV (TAAN TV)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eProfessor Fred Williams talks about establishing the African American Studies program at UTSA, Black history, and the importance of African American literature written by African Americans. He also discusses the impact of pop culture on a community and what the Alamo represents to him.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eAll materials are for noncommercial educational or research uses only. Please contact SAAACAM for any questions regarding usage rights.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["created"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Interview"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["MP4"]}},{"label":{"en":["Keyword"]},"value":{"en":["African American Studies, UTSA, African American Literature, Publishing, History, Harlem Renaissance, Slavery, Tulsa Riots, Pop Culture, Author, 300 Voices in 300 Days"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English (primary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Access Ss"]},"value":{"en":["access_public"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eProfessor Fred Williams talks about establishing the African American Studies program at UTSA, Black history, and the importance of African American literature written by African Americans. He also discusses the impact of pop culture on a community and what the Alamo represents to him.\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eAll materials are for noncommercial educational or research uses only. Please contact SAAACAM for any questions regarding usage rights.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["San Antonio African American Community Archive and Museum"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["San Antonio African American Community Archive and Museum"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/571/original/full-color_2x.png?1735841768","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/239/686/small/Copyof300VoicesLTCollectionFredWilliams.mp4_1713985987.jpg?1713985990","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/127825/file/239686","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - Copy_of_300_Voices_LT_Collection_Fred_Williams.mp4"]},"duration":1366.12267,"width":640,"height":360,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/239/686/small/Copyof300VoicesLTCollectionFredWilliams.mp4_1713985987.jpg?1713985990","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/127825/file/239686/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/127825/file/239686/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-saaacam.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/239/686/original/Copy_of_300_Voices_LT_Collection_Fred_Williams.mp4?1713985970","type":"Video","format":"video/mp4","duration":1366.12267,"width":640,"height":360},"target":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/127825/file/239686","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/127825/file/239686/transcript/66590","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Fredrick \"Fred\" Williams Transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/127825/file/239686/transcript/66590/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Transcript \r\nFor \r\nFrederick “Fred” Williams \r\n01/30/2018\r\nTyrone Darden  0:00  \r\nWelcome to another episode of 300 Voice in 300 Days. I'm your host, Tyrone Darden for the African American network, TAAN TV. I'm here with one of our many celebrated voices, Mr. Fred Williams. He's an author, he's an historian, he's many things. So we're gonna give him about thirty seconds to give a brief bio, and then we gonna jump right into the interview. [to Frederick Williams] Mr. Williams.\r\n\r\n\r\nFrederick Williams  0:23  \r\nOh, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.\r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  0:25\r\nYes sir.\r\n\r\n\r\nFrederick Williams  0:26\r\nUh, brief bio. Okay, let me say I taught at UTSA. I helped establish the Afro American Studies department. I taught almost everything out there from Afro American, uh, History of African American Studies, to African American Politics, to Politics of the African American movement to civil rights, to, of course, on the Harlem Renaissance and, of course, on African American literature from Phyllis Wheatley to the Black Arts Movement. I have also written five- I just finished my fifth novel. And it's a novel on, um, Bayard Rustin. The one I did right before that was a historical novel, Fires of Greenwood: The Tulsa Riot of 1921, which is my way of looking at or- or analyzing the Tulsa Riot in 1921 and what happened to Black Wall Street. Right now, I'm  the Literary Executive Editor of a small African American publishing company, Jade Publication. And what we're looking to do is publish only positive stories about the African American experience. If you bring me that junk, I won't publish it. Okay. So that's a little of my background.\r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  1:42  \r\nWell, I think- I want to call you now your new title, the African American expert. Because you- you were the African American Studies teacher, the African American– \r\n\r\n\r\nFrederick Williams  1:52\r\nOh my God, yes. \r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  1:53\r\n–I don't know. All I heard was African American. So we're on TAAN TV. So from here on i- from here on out, Mr. Fred Williams is the African American expert. With that being said, I think we can jump right into [pauses] a- a question that- I mean, we typically a- ask in the middle and sometimes at the end, but I think you don't need to be warmed up on this one. From your perspective, why do you feel like it's important for African Americans, for [pauses] people like you and I, to share our story?\r\n\r\n\r\nFrederick Williams  2:26  \r\nOh, [laughs] it's not only important Tyrone, it's essential. Black folks got to start telling their history their way. We don't do that. Everyone else has told our stories for us. And so therefore, they define who we are. Let's take something as simple as the word master. Okay. So what- what historians will do is they will- they will look at the relationship in slavery as the master, who was the White oppressor, and our ancestors were the slaves. Well, they weren’t masters. They were oppressors. And if you just ch- change that terminology itself, it changes the whole relationship. Master carries the implication, I think, of superiority, slave inferiority. And is- isn’t that the way they've looked at us throughout history? Superiority and inferiority? So things like that we need to change. In fact, I started a one-person crusade to change the definition of Black. We don't have to accept their definition. Uh, we can define it ourselves. When you look at the definition in the dictionary, white is beautiful, angelic, you know, all these other terms– \r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  3:40\r\nYes, sir.\r\n\r\n\r\nFrederick Williams  3:40\r\n–black is terrible, negative, something bad. Well why can't black be all those other terms? And we don't have to say white, the counter, we can just say this is black. So what I did, is I did an anthology. The first one is called Black is the Color of Strength. And it has, I think, thirteen essays by black writers that are really beautiful essays. Aaronetta Pierce did two in there, one on Maya Angelou and one on her, uh, going to the anniversary of the Civil Rights Movement at the Johnson Library a few years ago. I'm working on the second one. Black is the Color of Love. And the- the definition of love is not sex, but love, real love between people, between a race. And I have- those are all short stories. And we'll get some beautiful short stories. I know you had a young man in here a little earlier, Caleb Alexander. Man, he wrote a story, “The Gift.” I mean, it's just outstanding. That's- that's in the anthology. And I'm going to go to work on my third one, which is called Black is the Color of Spirituality. So what am I doing? I'm changing the definition of black. I don't have to accept their definition. And so that's why we have to start writing our history. This book right here, Fires of Greenwood: The Tulsa Riot of 1921. Well, we know what happened in Black Wall Street in 1921: we got massacred. We got massacred. And the folks that have written most of the history about that event have been Caucasians. Well, that's okay, you know, but why aren’t we writing it? So I took time, I did all the research, I did all the interviews, I read everything that's been written. And I decided to do it as a novel. And the reason I decided to do it that way, Tyrone, is because in a novel, you can get your readers right into the story. So, you know, when I had the scene at, uh, Little Rose Beauty Parlor, everyone could f- could just feel those women in the beauty parlor getting their hair done and talkin’ mess. Well, we know- we know that experience. We know it from the barber shop. But you can imagine the same thing happens in the- in the beauty parlor. Well someone- it's very difficult for someone White to catch that. We- We've lived it, you know, so we know- so why aren’t we writing it? And I think it's very important that we begin to write stories that create heroes in our- in our texts, and in our stories. Um, when I go around and talk to groups about this book, first question I ask, “Who is Davy Crockett, and who is O.B. Mann?” \r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  6:26\r\nO.B. Mann.\r\n\r\n\r\nFrederick Williams  6:27\r\nNobody knows O.B. Mann.\r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  6:29  \r\nI know because I read the book. [laughs]\r\n\r\n\r\nFrederick Williams  6:30  \r\nOh okay, so you know who O.B. Mann is. [laughs] But most people don’t know who O.B. Mann is. They say, “Well what are you talking about, O.B. Mann?” O.B. Mann was a hero because he fought off the invaders coming in there to kill the Black citizens, which they did: they killed over 300. And- and he and the other veterans fought off until the people could escape–well, you know the story–back into the woods. Well, our kids should know O.B. Mann like they know Davy Crockett. As far as I'm concerned, they should know Marcus Garvey. They should know all our heroes. What we're lacking for our young boys is a feeling of pride in being Black. Because they don't know it. They don't get it in- in the history books here in the schools, the public schools. Not one of these schools would- would make O.B. Mann a hero in the history book. So, what I do is I write to create our own heroes. The book I just did on Bayard Rustin. Very few people know Bayard Rustin. Well Bayard Rustin was the genius behind the whole Civil Rights Movement. He taught King the whole idea of non violence. He organized Southern Christian Leadership Conference, and he organized the March on- we all know about the March on Washington, 1963. But we don't know Bayard Rustin was the person that really did that. So we have to start doing those kinds of things. Giving our kids their history and their heroes. So to answer your question, yeah, we–\r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  7:58\r\nThat’s a great answer.\r\n\r\n\r\nFrederick Williams  7:59\r\nYou know, we have to start doing these- we really- it's essential at this point in our history, that we start doing these things, Tyrone, or we're gonna lose his culture. \r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  8:11  \r\nI think that might have been the richest “Why?,” or answer to “Why?” that we've got in our 300 Voices, so I want to thank you for that. Let’s pivot, but keep- keep the same- the same level, though, of intensity. You a- you are an author, but you're also a publisher. And you mentioned why it's important for us to tell our story. It's important because it's our story. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nFrederick Williams  8:40\r\nYeah, absolutely. \r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  8:41\r\nIt's not his or hers– \r\n\r\n\r\nFrederick Williams  8:42\r\nRight.\r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  8:42\r\n– or theirs, it's our story–\r\n\r\n\r\nFrederick Williams  8:43\r\nMe and you.\r\n\r\n\r\n8:44\r\n[simultaneously]\r\nTyrone Darden: It's our story. \r\nFrederick Williams: It’s our ancestors, yeah.\r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  8:46\r\nSo because it's our story, it's up to us to tell it; but my next question is going to be how? And before you respond to that I’mma- it’s not a cheap plug, because we- we're the network, The African American Network. That's what we're doing here. For 300 Voices in 300 Days, we're connecting with 300 people, 300 voices from all over the city with different backgrounds and different perspectives and different lenses. And they're sharing their story. They're sharing their understanding of being Black and their contributions here in San Antonio. But you know, we’re- we're doing it on a- in a media outlet that's fairly new on the internet, on an application [pauses] via whatever, Roku, whatever. But you're a publisher and you're a writer. You still put pen to pad. Maybe you got your old typewriter, still, somewhere–\r\n\r\n\r\nFrederick Williams  9:41\r\nTyping away. [laughs]\r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  9:42  \r\nTyping away, but you still publish books. \r\n\r\n\r\nFrederick Williams  9:46\r\nYes.\r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  9:48  \r\nTalk to us about outlets. Talk to us about your motivation. Talk to our viewers about why Jade Publishing is significant, why the different works you've put out are significant, and even the last piece you said, why you ain't taking no junk?\r\n\r\n\r\nFrederick Williams  10:06  \r\nWell, the reason I'm not taking any junk is because there's a lot of junk out there. And what, you know, we- we have to go back and look at our history in the literary world. Even during the Harlem Renaissance, the major publishers wanted to publish stuff that made Black people look like savages. Really, seriously, they- that's what they wanted to publish, because who are the buyers back then? Whites. So they were appealing to a White buying crowd. Well, they didn't want to hear about an intellectual Black or a hero Black. They didn't want to hear any of that stuff. They want to read about the Sambos. You know, we- we just came out of the minstrel shows. And just think how terrible the minstrel shows were. These folks would pay money to go into a theater to watch White folks with blackface act a clown, and they’d laugh. That was their entertainment, man. That was their perception of us. And so what- what comes along in the- in the Harlem Renaissance? Well, we no longer have to be afraid to speak out because we're in Harlem. They start to write a different kind of story about the beauty of our race, about what great people we are, how we endured that mess, and we're surviving. And those are the stories that we need to tell now. Now, we come into the period of the ‘60s. And I'm a young man in the ‘60s, you know, and- and Malcolm is saying, “Hey, be proud of being Black.” King is saying, “Be proud of being Black.” We wearing our fro’s. I’m b- bald now. I had a fro way out here, man.\r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  11:46\r\n[laughs] I believe you. \r\n\r\n\r\nFrederick Williams  11:48\r\nAnd so- dashikis, and then- you better not call a sister out of her name back then. You know what I mean? And you were my brother, you weren’t my dog. [Scoffs] Stuff like that. We lost that. And- and I think a lot of people have been studying why. And one of the reasons given is because of the crack epidemic. It tore apart the family, and we lost what we had gained in the ‘60s and ‘70s. And right now, I feel it's very important that we try to get it back. Because I- I look at- I look at culture like the body. There are different parts to the culture. There's- there's the family, there's the school, there's the peer group, and- and there's the church. Now, if you take each one of those, Tyrone, they’re- they're sick. They're sick. Now, let's say your body has cancer in your arms. In your- here [points to chest], here [points to legs], and in your head. What you gonna do? \r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  12:54\r\nGon’ rot away.\r\n\r\n\r\nFrederick Williams  12:55\r\nRot away and die. And if we don't turn this around in our culture, that's- that's what might happen to us.\r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  13:03  \r\nSo- great, great point. Great, great point. So two things: who's infecting us with this disease? You know, you hear, you know, you hear it’s systematic. But on the other side–and this is a conversation that both Blacks and non Blacks have–we're doing it to ourselves. That's the first part, the who, but the second part is, how do we break these chains? How do we kill and cure and heal ourselves?\r\n\r\n\r\nFrederick Williams  13:32  \r\nFirst part I think is, to me, not to other people–\r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  13:35  \r\nTo you, to you. Your voice– \r\n\r\n\r\nFrederick Williams  13:36\r\n–is pretty obvious.\r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  13:36\r\n–your voice, your voice.\r\n\r\n\r\nFrederick Williams  13:39  \r\nOkay. [laughs] Okay. It's pretty obvious. Um, I'm not a fan of rap music. I'm not a fan of those guys who came out of, uh [pauses] California. \r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  13:52\r\nNWA? Compton?\r\n\r\n\r\nFrederick Williams  13:53\r\nThat crap. Yeah, I'm not a fan of that. There was nothing positive about- about that music. You know, okay, you want to tell the story, here's how we're living. But if you do that, you have to hold out hope, man. If you don't hold out hope for people, you're gonna leave them with that negative feeling. They have to feel there's a way that they can get beyond this and do better. Rap music didn't hold out hope. And I used to listen to those guys say, [imitating rappers] “Well, we just tellin’ it the way it is.” We know how it is. Why do we need you to sing about it? And- and bring down the race? You know, I think about- you listen to some of the Temptations’ songs. Talk about “My Girl” or “Just My Imagination.” The Four Tops singing about the beauty of the Black woman, you know, Marvin Gaye, this- the love songs they sang. And look at this stuff, they're calling our women b's and h's and all this other stuff. What's positive about that? Now that's what has, to me, broke what we started in the ‘60s and ‘70s. When I love my sisters and I'd call her my sister, [I] would never think of calling her a b, or a h–you know what words I’m- what I’m [pauses] alluding to. I wouldn't- I wouldn't do that today. And it makes my skin crawl when I see that happen. Let me give you one example. I was teaching Civil Rights at UTSA and this guy Nelly comes out with this song where he takes a credit card and swipes down–\r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  15:30\r\n“Tip Drill.” \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\nFrederick Williams  15:31\r\n–[the backside] of a woman. Okay? And when I- when I went to my class, I told the sisters in there, “Every one of you should boycott this sucker because of what the impli- what he's implying you are worth.” Those sisters told me, “Yeah, but I like me some Nelly.” It dawned on me that they've accepted that role. They've accepted that- that negative role of- of being what he's saying they are. Well, there's nothing- why- why don't you want to be- know that you are a Black woman with ties to great- the mothers of Martin Luther King, the mothers of Marcus Garvey, the mother of Malcolm X, you know, the mother of Barack Obama, or- or the father–in his case–of Barack Obama, and- and, and the mother of- his wife. Young ladies, take pride in that, know who you represent, and then you won't accept this stuff. Man, do you know at UTSA, they had, on Halloween– now I’mma call them out, it's my fraternity [stammers] I'mma call it out. Omegas put on this party, where the guys came dressed as pimps, and the girls as hoes. And I told every girl in my class, “If I know you go to that party, I'm gonna go through the records and find your mother's number and call her and say, ‘Do you know what you paying for your daughter to come to UTSA and act like?’” So the answer, what's the answer? We have to take- we have to say, “I'm not gonna give up.” I'm gonna do my little part. I'mma push positive images of Black people through literature. Maybe some people start doing paintings that are positive, maybe someone starts singing positive music, maybe we will make a change, it’ll start to happen. Now do I think it’ll happen in my lifetime? Probably not. But when- when the good Lord calls me home, at least I can say I tried. And that's what's most important, that you try.\r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  17:42  \r\nThat's powerful. So you've been in San Antonio for a while. Um, and I ask this question a lot. You know, when you think of San Antonio, what's the first thing that comes to mind–and not the first thing, but first things. And you said something also that was profound, earlier. You know, people can tell you about Davy Crockett. But they can't tell you about these Black people that did the same or more than a Davy Crockett and call them heroes. People, you know, I've asked people, “What do you think about something- you know, what comes to mind when you think about San Antonio?” \r\n\r\n\r\nFrederick Williams  18:15\r\n[unintelligible]\r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  18:15\r\nAnd they- well, I’mma tell you what they say. \r\n\r\n\r\nFrederick Williams  18:17\r\nOkay, go ahead. \r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  18:18\r\nThey say the Riverwalk, they say the Tower of Americas, they say the Spurs, and you don't hear about… [pauses] G. J. Sutton, or Claude Black, Aaronetta Pierce. You don't hear about great people that have done great things… [pauses] locally, but on a global level. And I'm talking about Black folks. I'm talking about you and me. We say the Alamo. We say David Bowie or David Crockett, or whomever… [pauses] If I was to ask you, when you think about San Antonio, as a Black man, what comes to mind?\r\n\r\n\r\nFrederick Williams  19:09  \r\nWell, the first thing that comes to mind is a tremendous amount of writers we have here, and the great potential we have to be a force within the, uh, Black community nationwide. But I realize that we're being left out because we're- we’re in the shadow of Blacks in Dallas and Houston, we're in the shadow of Blacks in New York and Los Angeles, and we don't have to be. And, of course, this culture here is going to be dominated by the Hispanic culture. Which is understandable, but it doesn't mean that we can't be heard. And we need to be doing more of that. We need to get our writers out there. And that's why, as you know, over the years I have- I've had programs during Black History Month where I’ve brought in writers, and- and we do a literary weekend–and we’ll do one coming up this year. Now the second thing, on the negative side, I think about- when I think about the Alamo, well I think about a bunch of people who want to enslave my ancestors. Alamo is not about freedom. Alamo is about slavery. And I don't respect the Alamo at all. And I don't think Black people have reason to respect it. Because it brought- prior to what happened at the Alamo, slavery was outlawed in Texas because Mexico wouldn't- wouldn't recognize slavery. So what they wanted to do was get out under Mexico, so they had to have that battle to take Texas away. See, Texas wanted to come right into the Union, but they couldn't get in, they had to write- wait ten years. But the first thing they did in their constitution–anybody can go look at it, Tex- the Texas Constitution of 1836–they legalized slavery. Then they said that Texas can only buy their slaves from the United States. They couldn't bring them in for Africa. So that was an economic relationship between Texas and the United States because North Carolina, South Carolina, and Virginia, they were breeding far- breeding farms to breed slaves to take them to the southwest. So that's what I think about the- the Alamo. Not much at all. But I do believe that we need to continue to push the number of great writers and painters- we had some grea- they had an event across the street at the Carver Library last week, where the painters had their works, beautiful works. So we got a lot of talent here. We just need to get together and push it, and let the world know, “Hey, we know what we're doing and we do it well.” \r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  21:36  \r\nDefinitely. And you know what you do well? Tell our story. I want to thank you, Mr. Williams, for coming by, sharing with the, uh, the TAAN family. Um, we gonna bring you back though, ‘cause I know you got a lot more to talk about. Let us know about, uh, how we can find your work, so we can kind of support you with your books and your other work.\r\n\r\n\r\nFrederick Williams  21:59  \r\nOh, yes. You can get Fires- Fires of Greenwood by going to Amazon. It's now with- or- or you can just email me at fredwilliams@satx.rr.com, if you want an autographed copy.\r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  22:17  \r\nOkay. An- another one of those historic email addresses. We had AOL right before you. \r\n\r\n\r\n22:23\r\n[Both laugh.]\r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  22:24\r\nI want to thank you sir. \r\n\r\n\r\nFrederick Williams  22:25\r\nYes sir, my pleasure. Thank you.\r\n\r\n\r\nTyrone Darden  22:26\r\nIt's been a great time sitting and talking with you. I know I've enjoyed it, and I know our audience has enjoyed it as well. This has been another voice, one of 300, of 300 Voices in 300 Days. I'm your host, Tyrone Darden for the Afro American network TAAN TV. Thank you for tuning in. Hope to see you soon.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/127825/file/239686#t=0.0,1366.12267"}]}]}]}