{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/t727942q4c/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Clarence McGowan Interview"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/571/original/full-color_2x.png?1735841768","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Publisher"]},"value":{"en":["The African American Network TV (TAAN TV)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Description"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eFormer attorney and magistrate judge Clarence McGowan discusses his life, career, and contributions to the San Antonio community in this interview with Tyrone Darden of TAAN TV. In addition to highlighting his status as the second African American to graduate from the St. Mary's University law program, McGowan shares some of his most memorable casework as an attorney, as well as his role as one the \"blockbusters\" who was able to purchase properties in previously all-white neighborhoods of San Antonio.\u003c/p\u003e (summary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eAll materials are for noncommercial educational or research uses only. Please contact SAAACAM for any questions regarding usage rights.\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Date"]},"value":{"en":["2017-08-24 (created)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Type"]},"value":{"en":["Interview"]}},{"label":{"en":["Format"]},"value":{"en":["MP4"]}},{"label":{"en":["Keyword"]},"value":{"en":["St. Mary's University","Phillis Wheatley High School","Hattie Briscoe","Attorney","Magistrate Judge","Blockbuster","Property","Supreme Court","Deed Restrictions","Houston Street [San Antonio]","New Braunfels Avenue [San Antonio]","Law"]}},{"label":{"en":["Subject"]},"value":{"en":["Property Ownership (topical term)","Housing Integration (topical term)","Law (topical term)","Legal Career (topical term)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Language"]},"value":{"en":["English (primary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Access Ss"]},"value":{"en":["access_public"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eFormer attorney and magistrate judge Clarence McGowan discusses his life, career, and contributions to the San Antonio community in this interview with Tyrone Darden of TAAN TV. In addition to highlighting his status as the second African American to graduate from the St. Mary's University law program, McGowan shares some of his most memorable casework as an attorney, as well as his role as one the \"blockbusters\" who was able to purchase properties in previously all-white neighborhoods of San Antonio.\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eAll materials are for noncommercial educational or research uses only. 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I was born in Bryan, Texas, which is, I guess, maybe 150-some miles from here. I was born maybe two miles from Texas A\u0026M University, so that gives you a general idea of where the birth took place where it could. I have been in San Antonio since 1945. I originally came here to work in the public schools, I worked at [Phillis] Wheatley High School. I was a teacher of physics, mechanical drawing, and algebra. Those were the subjects that I taught at Wheatley High School.\r\n\r\n\r\n[Transition]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394#t=4.0,54.0"},{"id":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394/transcript/68505/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Tyrone Darden: You guys have tuned in to TAAN [The African American Network] TV. I'm your host, Tyrone Darden, for the African American Network with our special series, 300 Voices in 300 Days. As you just heard, we have one of our 300 voices, Mr. Clarence McGowan, born in Bryan, Texas, been here in San Antonio since– since the mid ‘40s. So we're gonna jump right into it. He just told us he was an educator over at Wheatley and taught some foundation courses. But we know he ventured out and started– he had a calling to be an attorney in the legal field. So if you can give us a little bit of information on– on your background in the legal field, Mr. McGowan.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394#t=54.0,91.0"},{"id":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394/transcript/68505/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Clarence Mcgowan: Well, when the Supreme Court decision of separate versus equal was declared to be unconstitutional, and colleges and universities had to accept Black people on an equal basis–or we'll say the same basis, or on the cloud on the same basis–then I decided to go to St. Mary's Law School here in San Antonio. And I went to St. Mary's in 1958, I graduated in 1963 by going in the evenings. I went five years at night. Every night for five years, every night except Sunday, we had classes. And I entered a practice of law in 1963, and I continued to practice law until the year 1998. I retired in 1998 from the practice of law.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394#t=91.0,150.0"},{"id":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394/transcript/68505/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Tyrone Darden: Okay, and so for– for those tuning in, we do have Mr. Clarence McGowan. He's a graduate of St. Mary's University, which what he didn’t say was he's the first African American to graduate from their law– from their law program, we talked a lot about–","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394#t=150.0,165.0"},{"id":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394/transcript/68505/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Clarence Mcgowan: No. I was the second. The first–","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394#t=165.0,168.0"},{"id":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394/transcript/68505/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Tyrone Darden: This– okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394#t=168.0,168.0"},{"id":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394/transcript/68505/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Clarence McGowan: –the first one was a woman named Hattie Briscoe.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394#t=168.0,171.0"},{"id":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394/transcript/68505/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Tyrone Darden: Hattie Briscoe.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394#t=171.0,172.0"},{"id":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394/transcript/68505/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Clarence Mcgowan: Yeah, she was the first person– first Black to graduate from St. Mary's. She worked at Wheatley when I worked at Wheatley. She was a cosmetology teacher, and she decided that she wanted to do something else, just as I did. Well, we wanted to try to make more money, number one.\r\n\r\n\r\n[Mutual laughter]\r\n\r\n\r\nAnd so she quit, and she went to St. Mary's before I did. And she graduated and opened a law practice, and I graduated and I opened a law practice.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394#t=172.0,202.0"},{"id":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394/transcript/68505/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Tyrone Darden: So I stand corrected. Miss Hattie Briscoe, who we all should know in our community, was the first African American, and Mr. Clarence McGowan was the first African American man to graduate from the law school here at St. Mary's. With that being said, we– we need to really, really be keen on– on those two things, because a lot of things are important in our community, but we also need to know the people who came before us. The many attorneys that are practicing here locally, whether they're born here or they’re practicing here, they're standing on the shoulders of– of attorney McGowan as well as the late Hattie Briscoe. So we must commend them on– on those efforts in going and taking those stances. And like– as Mr. McGowan did say, there was an opportunity to make a little bit more money as well.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394#t=202.0,251.0"},{"id":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394/transcript/68505/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Clarence Mcgowan: Yeah, that is correct. And after the graduation, during the political skirmishes that were held, I became the first Black judge. I was the magistrate judge for the Municipal Court. They have had many to come before– I mean, after me, but I was the first one. \r\n\r\n\r\n[Transition]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394#t=251.0,273.0"},{"id":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394/transcript/68505/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Tyrone Darden: And we– we most– just recently interviewed a couple of other people and your name was mentioned as the first African American magistrate judge. So it's good to know that others do know our history, and that we’re sharing that– sharing that here. So just there that– that role from educator to attorney and then judge, how did that impact you personally? Your quality of life and livelihood in– in the community, but also, like you said, going through the social aspect of it? We know there was a lot of rulings coming down with the Civil Rights– with the Civil Rights Movement, as well as segregation, Jim Crow, things like that. How did your progress, within your personal life and your career, How has that impacted with you as well as in the community?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394#t=273.0,323.0"},{"id":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394/transcript/68505/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Clarence Mcgowan: Well, it's a very difficult question to answer, because there’s so many facets that you can look at. Personally, my life was affected. I came up in a purely segregated community, 100% segregated. If you didn't know, you asked before you go. That's the community that I came up in. And to move into a community in San Antonio, where you went to school with people of other races and other color and other cultures, that impacted your life. And then you began to work with those people and make decisions that would affect you and also affect them, that affected your life. And it was– it was a good journey, though. It was a good journey. And I enjoyed every bit of it.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394#t=323.0,381.0"},{"id":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394/transcript/68505/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Tyrone Darden: We spoke– we spoke earlier. Of course, when we get into positions where maybe we're able to make a little bit more money, or there's more prestige–whether it's because you're an attorney, or a judge or other high profile, what we would call ho– high profile careers–there is a level of responsibility that goes with that. And as we've been discussing, during that time, segregation was– was imminent, we had a lot of different rulings coming from the federal court. But I do know during this period that “separate but equal” and– and desegregation was– was in the midst of our communities. And just reading and doing some research, I heard about an initiative that you were involved in, called the “blockbusters.” So if you could share– just, and you know, it– just the best of your ability, share with our audience what that blockbusters initiative was, and kind of how it affected the Blacks in– in San Antonio, we really would appreciate that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394#t=381.0,443.0"},{"id":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394/transcript/68505/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Clarence Mcgowan: Not having the opportunity to sit down and make a chronicle of events, I can remember that in 1968 I decided, along with my wife, that we were going to move to another neighborhood. She had desires by– finding a better and a larger house. Well, we couldn't really make a determination as to the neighborhood because there was a federal law that says that deed restrictions were constitutional. And Blacks could not move in certain neighborhoods because the deeds that these people had said that if the property was ever sold to a person of Negroes, that the property would revert back to the original owner. Or, on the other hand, white people could buy the property from this person who owned the property and keep a Negro from buying it. Many of the deeds had what you call “zoning restrictions.” They said that, “This deed has the following restrictions: no dogs, no cats, no chickens, no Negroes.” Many of those deeds are on record. When I began to practice law, I came to become acquainted with a white real estate agent named C.H. Griffin, who primarily was a representative agent for sellers or buyers of property in Black neighborhoods. Mr. Griffin had me to do several deeds for people who bought or sold the property, and we became communication friends. He came to me one day and said, “McGowan,” said, “I have some property on Poinsettia Street that I think I can sell to you and should be a good investment. It's a duplex, and I think we're gonna be able to sell it to you.” I say, “Well, you know that property has deed restrictions to it.” He said, “Yes,” [he] said, “but the deed restrictions, you know, the United– the federal government has declared, through the Supreme Court, that those deed restrictions are unconstitutional.” I said, “Yeah,” I said, “but we don't want to create any riots. All this might be unconstitutional, [but] we don't want people to be running up and down the streets creating trouble.” He said, “Well, you buy it, and I’ll see that you don't have any trouble.” So my wife and I bought this piece of property on Poinsettia Street. At this time also, several other persons in the community decided that they wanted to move to a different house. There was a doctor named Frank Bryant. And there was another doctor who was a– who was a foot doctor, I can't remember his name right now, but he wanted to move. So we all decided– we all decided, there were– I think there were– all together there was five– there were five people all together, who decided they would move to a different neighborhood. So I moved to the neighborhood called Northwood. Frank Bryant moved over into what's called, I believe, Inspiration Hills. There was such a public, what I might say, advertisement over our having moved that our church decided that they would make– I guess, make some money off of it. So our church, Southern Baptist, always had what you call Valentine's Day. And they decided on this particular year, that they would have the party–they called it a copper party–they had this party at the home of one of the persons who had moved. Well, we decided that that wasn't really a good idea because you couldn't, you couldn't really choose which of the– the homes of the people that you wanted to. So we decided that we would have a bus and we would tour these homes. And the church sponsored a bus for people to come and see the house that we had bought, and also see the house that Dr. Bryant had bought, and also the house that the others had bought. And this bus carried anybody who wanted to go for free. But just as they do at all Baptist churches, they took up a collection. But anyway, we didn't have any particular trouble, at least I didn't. We got one problem that almost arose, and that was the day that the Klu Klux Klan threw the newspaper in my front yard. I went out to get the morning paper, and there was this extra paper there. So I said, “I'll take it to– in the house and look at what this is.” It was a Klu Klux Klan paper saying that white supremacy would particularly reign in this community. Well, I didn't do anything about it, but some of the neighbors told the party who held the note on my house. Incidentally, the men, or the company, that held a note on my house, the mortgage, lived about four blocks down the street from where I had bought. He was the president of a mortgage and loan company. And we had made a pretty sizable downpayment, and I suppose he said, “Well, now we're gonna let him stay, because the– the monthly payments that he's making are real good.” \r\n\r\n\r\n[Mutual laughter] \r\n\r\n\r\nSo I didn't, I didn't have any particular trouble out of the neighborhood. Although, I know that there were many people in the neighborhood who were what you might call “busy bodies.” But the neighborhood at that time, and I think it still is, is of such a neighborhood that the people are busy trying to take care of their– their property and also enjoy their property, rather than to destroy somebody else. And Frank Bryant lived in his neighborhood, and the other persons who I still can't remember the names, they lived in their neighborhoods. And then I began to purchase property. My wife and I, we began to purchase property in neighborhoods that had traditionally been– been white. We bought, I guess, over a period of time, we bought sixteen different properties. We owned sixteen different properties. Through this real estate agent, C.H. Griffin, we bought on what's called a “contract of sale.” And we rented these properties out to white people, and many of them had to come to my office in order to make the payments. Some of them mailed the payments in. But it was a long ride, but we enjoyed it very much. We– the greatest piece of– the most valuable piece of property that we blockbusted was the corner of Houston [Street] and St. James [Street]. There is now the HEB grocery store there. My wife and I purchased that property on the day that John F. Kennedy got shot in Dallas. We went through the– went to the owner of the property on that particular day and signed the contract. I remember that situation. The man who owned that property owned the property from St. James, and he owned four lots coming east tow– to New Braunfels [Avenue]. Those four lots were vacant between the property that was on the corner of St. James and Houston, and New Braunfels. There was only one other property, there was a– was a Exxon station on the corner there of New Braunfels and Houston. There used to be an Exxon station there for years. Although, they didn’t serve anybody but pe– white people. They made ‘em– they did real well. When we bought that property, the man who owned it had told us, [he] said, “If I sell you this lot, I would actually be coming– putting myself at a disadvantage, because I would be unable to sell the other lots.” By that I mean, the lots that existed between St. James and New Braunfels. I said “Well, we’ll buy all the lots.” My wife looked at me and said, “We're gonna buy all the lots?” I said, “Yeah, we’ll buy all of ‘em.” So he said, “Well, alright, if you gon’ buy all of ‘em, I'll sell you all of ‘em, then I'll be relieved of it.” Well, I didn't know what I was going to do, or how I was going to do it, but I went to the NBC [National Bank of Commerce] bank and I told the loan officer, when I was interviewed, that I needed to borrow some money. And he said, “What it was for, [inaudible] what you gon’ do with it?” I said, “I’m gon’ pay my income tax.” He said, “Well, we'll lend you money to pay the income tax.” So he loaned enough– enough money to make a down payment on that property, and we managed to pay for the property. And then later, after we had paid for it, along came Kroger depa– stores. And Kroger decided to buy and– from us, and they bought the corner of St. James and– [transition] bought all of the other lots. Kroger built a store there. And for some reason or another, they decided to move, and they sold the property to– I mean, they leased the property to HEB. And we stayed there until Kroger built that, and then I moved my office over on New Braunfel Avenue. I moved over there on New Braunfel Avenue across from Beacons, across from the auto– it’s an Autozone stre– right across the street from us. And we managed to sell that property. And we managed to sell all of the other properties that we had purchased under the Civil Rights Act. I guess it was just a good journey. But we managed to– to stay above the water all the way along the way.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394#t=443.0,1153.0"},{"id":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394/transcript/68505/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Tyrone Darden:  I hope you guys are listening. I've been– I've been in this community for– I’m 37 years old, so I’ve been here for 37 years. So to get that– that history on the HEB and– and how it got here and– and that some African Americans in the community actually owned that and– and owned that– all that property as– as many more properties. I think that's a phenomenal thing. And again, we talk about San Antonio, we think about the Alamo, we think about the Riverwalk, but we need to be thinking about these– these leaders that we had over the years that have paved the way for us. Is there any more interest– there's so many more– so many interesting things that we've learned throughout this interview. I’ve– this is probably the least I've talked out of all the interviews I've done. And it's for good reason, because this is a jewel of information, right here, treasure of information right here. But Mr. McGowan, is there anything else significant that you think that the viewers need to know that– that you've witnessed, that you've been a part of, that– that you can help say that, “You know what? This should be mentioned and noted for our history here locally in San Antonio.”","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394#t=1153.0,1222.0"},{"id":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394/transcript/68505/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Clarence Mcgowan: In the practice of law, I can remember one particular case that I had, that I think that the viewers might be glad that– that we represented this man. There was a young man in the army, who was stationed here in San Antonio. He was a PFC [Private First Class]. He called and– me and told me that he was in jail because he would not salute the flag. Each and every morning, the flag was raised at the arsenal depot down on Arsenal Street, which is off of South Flores [Street] down in there out of the Crane– King William area. They used to have a lot of arsenal equipment down there, government– well, I don’t know whether they had tanks or what they had, but they had a lot of equipment down there. But this man was in the army and he was stationed down there. He said, “Well, I don't– I don't salute the flag because they don't treat me right.” I said, “What is wrong?” He said, “Well, they don't give me any work to do, anything to do other than to clean the mimeograph machine. Every day I go in, I have to clean the mimeograph machine. They speak to me in terms that are not nice. They call me names. And they have me clean the floors and clean the mimeograph machine. And they asked me to put up the flag. Well, I'm not gonna put up the flag anymore because the people that are represented by the flag are not my people.” The case went to trial in the military. There was a possibility that this man could be incarcerated for life. There was a possibility that he could get a dishonorable discharge. We vigorously defended him and he was honorably discharged. I think that was a very, very significant thing that had happened in the life of this particular man. The San Antonio Light, at that time, gave him positives all along the way. And he left San Antonio with an honorable discharge. They kicked him out, but he was honorably discharged. I think that was a very significant case. I can also remember a very significant case of a family that owned 230 acres of land in a county adjacent to San Antonio. And the people who owned the lumberyard in that particular county sent this Black family a notice of foreclosure. “We’re gonna foreclose on your land because you haven’t been paying us.” The man had– and his wife had been paying on the land for thirty years. And they had receipts to show that they had paid on it for thirty years. According to the mortgage agreement, if they made their regular payments in twenty-five years, they would have paid for the land. But they didn't know that, they can hardly read and write. But they made their monthly payments and they paid it. The motive for the foreclosure was because there was going to be oil wells drilled in a particular neighborhood, and these people wanted to capture this piece of land so that they could get the mineral interest. We tried the case in about three days, showing the proof that these people had paid for this land, or they had no release showing that they had paid for it. They had paid for it and had continuously paid on it. We went into the courtroom on the final day and the attorney representing these people at the lumber company filed a motion for an instructed verdict. We made our argument, they made their argument, we made our rebuttal. The court, I can remember this fella, he was a very, very pale man with real white hair, had on a black suit. He listened to the augments, and he looked at the attorney representing the lumber company and he said, “I deny your motion.” The courtroom was stunned! This man who represented the lumber company, looked at the judge and said, “Judge,” said, “Why are you denying my motion?” The judge told him, “It ain’t the law.” And I remember that. And as I practiced law, I know that there are many occasions where color was part of the weight that was used to determine guilt or not guilt, but I always thought that a person would be released because it ain't the law. And I believe that the judges who heard most of the cases that I handled in court, they went on the premise that it is the law, or it is not the law. It's not the color of the person or amount of money that he has, or his status in the community, it’s the law. And anyone who goes into the practice of law, they should go into it with that particular philosophy: that it is the law or ain't the law. And that's the only way that you can be– be successful in practice, in my opinion.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394#t=1222.0,1667.0"},{"id":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394/transcript/68505/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Tyrone Darden: And that– that's a great opinion. As we close our interview, again, I want to thank our viewers for being here. I want to thank Mr. McGowan for being here as well. This has been, in my opinion, by far the most informative interview in regards to how it relates to the contributions of African Americans here in our community, as we go through this process with Colin Kaepernick. And– and as Mr. McGowan shared about the Private First Class that he represented here locally, and how he faced life imprisonment and even a dishonorable discharge, where that would be a black mark on his record, and not getting credit for serving in our military back in those days, it goes to show you how far we've come, but it also shows you how far we have to go if we're still dealing with those same issues. I– I can– when he was describing the gentleman that he was representing, I could hear, you know, the different conversations about the Colin Kaepernick situation and why he's doing it and why it makes sense and why people should stand behind him. And– and again today in 2017, that we're still having those conversations. It's a positive thing, but it should be downing to us to understand that we're still facing those trials. We're still going through those– still going over those and around those barriers. You know, there's a lot of positive things going on in our community. There's a lot of positive people in our community, and I hope, I hope that you guys have– have really, really enjoyed this interview. Again, I want to thank you, Mr. McGowan, second African American to graduate from law school [transition] one of the members of the blockbusters initiative that, basically, paved the way for Black real estate ownership here in this community that we call the East Side and African American side of town. We just want to say thank you. Thank you guys for tuning in. I'm your host, Tyrone Darden, the African American Network, 300 Voices in 300 Days. Thank you.\r\n\r\n\r\nTranscribed by https://otter.ai","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://saaacam.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2808/collection_resources/131120/file/245394#t=1667.0,1794.92647"}]}]}]}